BadFiction states “The copy of Indonesian Law 62:1858 that I used is from the website of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR). Full URL is:

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,LEGISLATION,IDN,4562d8cf2,3ae6b4...

Thank you BadFiction for the Link, but I believe you meant, Law 62:1958 and not 1858.

Next, BadFiction talks about 8 U.S.C. §1435. BadFiction in their “The Indonesian Citizenship Myth – Part 1″ stated that the Nationality Act of 1940, Section 317(b), only pertained to loss of citizenship of a woman who marries a foreigner only pertained to marriages occurring before Sept. 22, 1922. I used 8 U.S.C. §1435(a)(2) to show BadFiction that a woman could still lose her U.S. citizenship as a result of marriage to an alien ineligible to U.S. citizenship. Just to reiterate, 8 U.S.C. §1435(a) states:

“a) Requirements:
Any person formerly a citizen of the United States who (1) prior
to September 22, 1922, lost United States citizenship by marriage
to an alien, or by the loss of United States citizenship of such
person’s spouse, or (2) on or after September 22, 1922, lost United
States citizenship by marriage to an alien ineligible to
citizenship, may if no other nationality was acquired by an
affirmative act of such person other than by marriage be
naturalized upon compliance with all requirements of this
subchapter, except -”

In all fairness to BadFiction I did have 8 U.S.C. §1435(a)(2), the (2) was an accident, and I had meant to take that out.

But this aside, BadFiction claims that 8 U.S.C. 8 U.S.C. §1435(a) does not say what I claim it says. Regardless of the added (2), 8 U.S.C. §1435(a) in fact does say what I claimed in my response to his “The Indonesian Citizenship Myth – Part 1″ article, see above.

BadFiction next states “…neither Berg or any other birther have provided any evidence to support their claim that Stanley Ann Dunham ever gave up her US citizenship.” BadFiction then cites Law 62:1958. We disagree, despite this, it doesn’t matter what citizenship status Stanley Ann Dunham Soetoro took on. The important issue here is Soetoro/Obama’s citizenship status. Not so fast, see 8 U.S.C. §1435(a). Was Lolo Soetoro eligible to become a U.S. “naturalized” citizen? BadFiction’s claim that Soetoro/Obama was born in the U.S. has been answered many times. What proof does BadFiction have? The image of the certification of live birth? Well Certification of Live Birth’s are given to children born abroad and registered by a parent also. Doesn’t Maya, who was born in Indonesia have a Certification of Live Birth? Regardless, where is Soetoro/Obama’s “Certificate of Live Birth”? Certificate of Live Birth’s are given to children born in Hawaiian Hospitals. A Certification of Live Birth is different than a “Certificate of Live Birth”. Moreover, I.C.E. was investigating Hawaii for their flux of illegal immigrants. Certification of Live Births do not prove “natural born” U.S. citizenship status. See the Department of Homeland’s booklet, it states that a certification of Live birth is not even enough to prove Hawaiian heritage, but we are expected to accept it as “natural born” U.S. citizenship status?

Next is the argument regarding the Nationality Act of 1940 Revised 1952, Section 318. I used this section to show BadFiction contrary to his statements that a parent cannot expatriate a child’s citizenship status the Nationality Act says otherwise. Section 318 does nothing but talk about a child’s expatriation as a result of their parents actions. Now, lets straighten the rest of this out. Indonesia’s laws would govern, not the United States Laws.

As said time and time again by us, we believe that Soetoro/Obama was legally acknowledged and/or adopted by Lolo Soetoro. As stated in my previous post, which I have pasted below.

Soetoro/Obama was registered in a public school as an Indonesian citizen by the name of Barry Soetoro and his father was listed as Lolo Soetoro, M.A. Indonesia did not allow foreign students to attend their public schools in the late 1960’s or 1970’s, and any time a child was registered for a public school, the child’s name and citizenship status were verified through the Indonesian Government. See Constitution of Republic of Indonesia (Undang-Undang Dasar Republik Indonesia 1945), Chapter 13, Law No. 62 of 1958 (all citizens of Indonesia have a right to education) – ** it does not say all children are entitled to an education, it specifies “all citizens” **. The Indonesian school record, indicates that Soetoro/Obama’s name is “Barry Soetoro;” his nationality is “Indonesia” and his father “Lolo Soetoro, M.A. There was no way for Soetoro/Obama to have attended school in Jakarta, Indonesia legally unless he was an Indonesian citizen, as Indonesia was under tight rule and was a Police State. See Constitution of Republic of Indonesia (Undang-Undang Dasar Republik Indonesia 1945), Law No. 62 of 1958. These facts indicate that Obama/Soetoro is an Indonesian citizen, and therefore he is not eligible to be President of the United States.

Under Indonesian law, when a male acknowledges a child as his son, it deems the son, in this case Soetoro/Obama, an Indonesian State citizen. See Constitution of Republic of Indonesia, Law No. 62 of 1958 concerning Immigration Affairs and Indonesian Civil Code (Kitab Undang-undang Hukum Perdata) (KUHPer) (Burgerlijk Wetboek voor Indonesie).

Furthermore, under the Indonesian adoption law, once an Indonesian citizen adopts a child, the adoption severs the child’s relationship to the birth parents, and the adopted child is given the same status as a natural child and the child takes the name of his step-father, in this case, Soetoro. See Indonesian Constitution, Article 2.

The Indonesian citizenship law was designed to prevent apatride (stateless) or bipatride (dual) citizenship. Indonesian regulations recognized neither apatride nor bipatride (stateless or dual) citizenship. Since Indonesia did not allow dual citizenship; neither did the United States (since the United States only permitted dual citizenship when ‘both’ countries agree); and since Obama/Soetoro was a “natural” citizen of Indonesia, the United States would not step in or interfere with the laws of Indonesia. Hague Convention of 1930.

At the time Barry Soetoro was in Indonesia, all Indonesian students were required to carry government identity cards or Karty Tanda Pendudaks, as well as family card identification called a Kartu Keluarga. The Kartu Keluarga is a family card which bears the legal names and citizenship status of all family members. See Asian Law Digests INDONESIA LAW DIGEST 9.02.

In addition, see the following Indonesian laws:

1 Asian Law Digests INDONESIA LAW DIGEST 4.02

4.02 CITIZENSHIP:

State citizens of Indonesia include: …(viii) children who are born outside of legal marriage from foreign state citizen mother who are acknowledged by father who is Indonesian State citizen as his children and that acknowledgment is made prior to children reaching 18 years of age or prior to marriage;

In event status of citizenship of Republic of Indonesia results in dual citizenship in relation to following categories of children, after age of 18 years or after aforementioned child has married, child must declare choice of one citizenship: …(iii) children who are born outside of legal marriage from foreign state citizen mother where child is acknowledged by father who is Indonesian State citizen as his child and that acknowledgment is conducted prior to child reaching 18 years of age or prior to marriage;…. (vi) Indonesian State citizen children who have not yet reached age of five years who are lawfully adopted by foreign state citizens based upon court decision.

Declaration of choice of citizenship is to be made in writing and delivered to official with attachment of documents which are stipulated by regulations of law.

1 Asian Law Digests INDONESIA LAW DIGEST 13.04

13.04 INFANTS

Citizenship Matters.

Children are deemed Indonesian citizens if they are born outside of legal marriage from foreign State citizen mother who is acknowledged by father who is Indonesian State citizen as his child and that acknowledgment is made prior to child reaching 18 years of age or prior to marriage. Children are deemed Indonesian citizens if they are born outside of legal marriage, have not yet reached age of 18 years, have not yet married and are legally acknowledged by father who has foreign citizenship.

BadFiction next states “There is no evidence to support the claim that Obama had at any time an Indonesian passport.”, well BadFiction, there certainly is not any evidence to support he didn’t nor is there any evidence to support he maintained a U.S. passport.

But, BadFiction next states “Stanley Ann Dunham left Lolo Soetoro in 1972 and came back to Hawaii for several years. She returned to Indonesia for her field work, and spent time in both locations. The Soetoro-Dunham divorce was on 20 August 1980. Since her field work in her degree was related to Indonesia, there’s no reason why she couldn’t be living as a US expat in Indonesia and have her legal US residence be in Hawaii.” This all sounds great with one exception. Maya was approx. 11 years old, a minor still in school full time, Maya would not be able to travel back and forth from Indonesian to Hawaii and vice versa. Plus, Stanley Ann would have been required to appear for Court in her divorce. Moreover, it was my understanding that Stanley Ann Dunham went back to Indonesia later in the 80’s to take care of Lolo Soetoro who had been diagnosed with cancer. Lolo Soetoro died in or about 1987.

Interesting enough, next BadFiction attempts to use the filings in the Strunk Case in D.C. He cites out what the U.S. DOJ states in their court filing. It is important to note, the document that BadFiction linked to is nothing more than “Affirmative Defenses” and “General Denials” which is common practice in all civil litigation. It means nothing at this stage of the Strunk litigation. In the case of Jablonski v. Ford Motor Co., Case# 03-L-2027, Madison County, MO. Ford Motor Company was sued, they too filed “Affirmative Defenses” and “General Denials”. The case went to trial and the jury returned a verdict for the Jablonski’s in the amount of $43 Million Dollars. Defendants in any type of case must answer a lawsuit, unless it is dismissed, when they answer, they deny all allegations, just as the DOJ did in the Strunk case and just like Ford Motor Company did in the Jablonski case.

BadFiction goes into great detail regarding adoptions, Lolo Soetoro’s religion or lack thereof, his claims that U.S. law prevails over the issues pertaining to Indonesia, not only is this rhetorical, but I have addressed most of this in my first response and again above.

The next move on BadFiction's part is he covers what the Indonesian Constitution states regarding education. In fact BadFiction states:

“Constitution of Indonesia of 1945 first: (asnic.utexas.edu)
Chapter XIII. Education
Article 31″

“1. Every citizen has the right to education.”

“2. The government shall establish and conduct a national educational system which shall be regulated by law.”

Thank you BadFiction, you point out what I had stated, the Indonesian constitution you posted says it all. Notice, it says every citizen. It does not say every child, it does not mention non citizens, etc.

It just gets better. BadFiction now states that the Indonesia school record is considered prima facia evidence. He then states it does not prove citizenship. I beg to differ BadFiction, what does the front of the document say? Yes, it says child’s name is Barry Soetoro; citizenship status: Indonesian; Father, Lolo Soetoro, M.A.

Now what exactly is prima facie evidence? Prima Facie evidence is a Latin legal term which means evidence that is sufficient to raise a presumption of fact or to establish the fact in question. prima facie is used in modern legal English to signify that on first examination, a matter appears to be self-evident from the facts. A prima-facie case is a lawsuit that alleges facts adequate to prove the underlying conduct supporting the cause of action and thereby prevail. After the Plaintiff has established a prima facie case, the burden of production shifts to the Defendant, in this case Soetoro/Obama. A plaintiff can also establish a prima facie case by “offering evidence adequate to create an inference”. Most legal proceedings require a prima facie case to exist, following which proceedings may then commence to test it, and create a ruling.

BadFiction is incorrect, the Indonesian School Record is prima facie evidence all right, but not just the fact Soetoro/Obama attended the Indonesia School, which Soetoro/Obama admits. It is also prima facia evidence of Soetoro/Obama’s name; citizenship status; and father’s name which indicates either a legal acknowledgment or adoption.

Next is the rhetoric about Hawaii, how Soetoro/Obama was born in Hawaii. BadFiction even states that the Indonesian School Record states that Soetoro/Obama was born in Hawaii and he is correct. However, Soetoro/Obama has a Certification of Live birth which was also furnished back in the early 1960’s to children born abroad whose births were registered in Hawaii, they then were issued a Certification of Live Birth. Moreover, if a child was born in a Hawaii hospital, they were issued a Certificate of Live Birth. Why doesn’t Soetoro/Obama have a Certificate of Live Birth? We have been provided copies of other individuals Certificate of Live Birth’s that were born around the same time as Soetoro/Obama. A Certification of Live Birth and a Certificate of Live Birth are two (2) completely different documents.
Regardless of where Soetoro/Obama was born, the Indonesian issues is what is prominent. Once Soetoro/Obama became Barry Soetoro, an Indonesian state citizen, the birth place is completely moot. This is not conjecture, BadFiction said it himself, the Indonesian School Record is prima facie evidence.

BadFiction states a minor could not have been removed from the Country without a U.S. passport. Not true BadFiction. You are not checked for a passport leaving the country. Further, back in the early 1960’s there were family passports. At age 2, Soetoro/Obama would have been traveling on his mother’s passport.

BadFiction states, and I must quote:

“Article 3. (1)A child outside a marriage of a mother who is a citizen of the Republic of Indonesia or a child out of a legal marriage, but who has in a case of divorce been assigned to the care of its mother, a citizen of the Republic of Indonesia, who follows the nationality of the father, a foreigner, may present a petition to the Minister of Justice in order to acquire the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia, if, after, having acquired the citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia, it possesses no other nationality or states at the same time to have released another nationality according to the procedure stipulated by the legal provisions of the country of origin. and/or according to the procedure stipulated by the agreement on the settlement of the bi-nationality between the Republic of Indonesia and the country in question”

Article 3 does not pertain to Soetoro/Obama. Soetoro/Obama’s mother was not a citizen of Indonesia at the time of her marriage to Lolo Soetoro or at the time of the birth of Soetoro/Obama. Lolo Soetoro is not the foreign parent. Lolo Soetoro was an Indonesian citizen who legally acknowledged and or adopted Soetoro/Obama. The child follows the citizenship status of the father, in this case Lolo Soetoro.

As I continue reading through BadFiction’s post, he addresses the adoption issue and states that Indonesia is 86.1% Muslim and therefore under Islamic law Soetoro/Obama would not take the name Soetoro if adopted. BadFiction then sites the Qu'ran. Not so BadFiction.

Nowhere can I find in the Indonesian laws anything about a child not taking the Indonesian adoptive father’s last name. See 1 Asian Law Digests Indonesia Law Digest13.01; Martindale-Hubbell(R) Law Digest – Asian Law Digests; 1 Indonesia Law Digest; Section 13 Family.

BadFiction asks “And do you have a copy of this Kartu Keluarga by any chance?? If not, you can’t infer anything on it.” Ummmm, BadFiction, it was and is the law in Indonesia, all families had to see Asian Law Digests INDONESIA LAW DIGEST 9.02. Indonesian citizens are required to complete civil registration, implementation of which includes completing formalities for and obtaining family identity cards and recordation concerning every change which arises.

BadFiction states “Customs officials don’t look at birth certificates, they look at passports. In addition, the US State Department accepts the Hawaiian COLB as Prima Facie evidence of US birth and citizenship. Even if he lost his US passport in Indonesia, his mother could have provided the info for the US Embassy in that country to provide him a new one.” My fault BadFiction, what the statement was supposed to say was we believe Soetoro/Obama returned from Indonesia as Barry Soetoro, however, was enrolled in his private school as Barack H. Obama and his Certification of Live Birth was used for identification purposes. Sorry BadFiction, my bad. LOL!

BadFiction claims, according to an article which does not specify any dates, “The regime sided with the assimilationist perspective of the LPKB, instead of the integrationist approach that Baperki had propounded. Chinese Indonesians who had joined the anti-communist movement and who were close to the regime viewed assimilation as the best option. The New Order regime consequently adopted policies to eliminate the distinctions marking Chinese Indonesians from other Indonesian citizens. It banned alien schools and urged all Chinese (citizens and non-citizens) to attend Indonesian national schools.” – Page 65 The date of this statement is very important why? See below:

Assimilation into the New Order (1965–1998)

In the 1960s, many government regulations, such as PP 10/1959, restricted Chinese Indonesians from the rural areas and forced many to relocate to big cities.

President Suharto became a strong advocate for Chinese assimilation rather than integration. As part of 1967’s ‘Basic Policy for the Solution of the Chinese Problem’ and other measures, all but one Chinese-language papers were closed, all Chinese religious expressions had to be confined to their homes, Chinese-language schools were phased out, Chinese script in public places was banned, and Chinese were encouraged to take on Indonesian-sounding names, Schwarz, A. (1994). A Nation in Waiting: Indonesia in the 1990s. Westview Press. p. 106. ISBN 1-86373-635-2. Most of this legislation were revoked following Suharto’s resignation in 1998.

Political pressures in the 1970s and 1980s restricted the role of the Chinese Indonesian in politics, academics, and the military. As a result, they were thereafter constrained professionally to becoming entrepreneurs and professional managers in trade, manufacturing, and banking. In the 1970s, following the failed alleged Communist coup attempt in 1965, there was a strong sentiment against the Chinese Indonesians, who were accused of being Communist collaborators.

See McGregor, Katharine E., History in Uniform. Military Ideology and the Construction of Indonesia’s Past, Leiden 2007; Hadiz, Vedi R., The Left and Indonesia’s 1960s: the politics of remembering and forgetting.

One last note BadFiction, the 1945 Constitution of the Republic of Indonesia you linked to is dated Republic of Indonesia 1989 and states in the first paragraph “The translation of the current publication of “The 1945 Constitution” is a provisional revision to that of the previous editions which were based on the translation of its first edition published by the then Yogyakarta-based Information Ministry of the Republic of Indonesia in 1950″

You did a great job BadFiction trying to discredit the Indonesian issues.

SOURCE: ObamaCrimes.com, http://obamacrimes.com/?p=413